Disputatio:Ars athletica
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What does deportus mean? I did not find it anywhere (Vicipaedia:Lexicon). What is the relation to exercitatio corporis? --Roland2 20:45, 15 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
- Could it relate to deporto 'carry off'? The past participle would rightly be deportatus. How that would relate to 'exercise of the body' is unclear, unless, perhaps, somebody thinks it means 'weightlifting'. :) IacobusAmor 21:30, 15 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
- It's meant to mean "sport." *disportus > It. sporto. Because it "takes you away" from your troubles, and whatnot. --Iustinus 21:54, 15 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
- I hasten to add that I don't approve of this translation, and that the page itself is full of such barbarisms. --Iustinus 22:00, 15 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
- My old dictionary gives 'to disport oneself' as ludo, iocor. For 'sport' meaning 'play' or 'pastime', it offers these nouns: ludus, iocus, oblectamentum, delectamentum, oblectatio, delectatio, lusus. It says 'sports, or public shows' are spectacula or ludi. It gives the idiom 'to entertain with a variety of sports' as spectaculis varii generis delectare. And it has this note: "When sport denotes the pleasure taken in the exercise of any particular game, it is to be rendered in Latin by some word expressing that species of recreation; as, for hunting, Venatio, venatus; for fowling, Aucupium, aucupatio; for fishing, Piscatio, piscatus." Under ludus, the same dictionary has ludi circenses 'games or exercises'.
- Applying this to soccer, would we call the entire series of World Cup events a spectaculum and each match a ludus? Or are all the events spectacula and the game of soccer itself a ludus? Or is there any point in trying to make such distinctions? IacobusAmor 00:37, 16 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
- Certamen is certainly attested...see book V of the Aeneid. I think the tournament style nature of the world cup qualifies it for this usage. The superbowl, in contrast, I would call a spectaculum, while an individual american football game, or a game of soccer is probably rightly a ludus. I wonder if also exists an antique word predating "partido".--Ioshus Rocchio 00:54, 16 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
- Applying this to soccer, would we call the entire series of World Cup events a spectaculum and each match a ludus? Or are all the events spectacula and the game of soccer itself a ludus? Or is there any point in trying to make such distinctions? IacobusAmor 00:37, 16 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I'd agree: certamen should be fine for any contest and can be used for any competition (it comes from certo 'I vie'), though dictionary entries suggest it may ordinarily bear a more general sense than ludus & lusus (which, after all, come from ludo 'I play, sport, frisk, dance, make a pastime, banter, jest'). That is, certamen would be less specific to sports. IacobusAmor 01:32, 16 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
- Remember that a tournament is essentially a passage through a course, a decursio, originally involving horses. :) IacobusAmor 02:25, 16 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
- So deportus and exercitatio corporis apparently have a sive-relation (see also Disputatio_Vicipaediae:Redirectio#Templates_for_some_types_of_redirects) and a {{contribuenda}} would be appropriate? And shouldn't the summary of these explanations go into a <ref>...</ref> section? Or maybe we should have a special section "De titulu" or "De nomine"? It's the same with Fragor Maximus: There was a discussion about the term which is not mentioned in the article and not mentioned in the talk page. What policy do we have here (see Vicipaedia:Fontes)? Is it desired to have such information included in the article? I'd say yes. --Roland2 08:03, 16 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
- Unless we can find a locus classicus or a modern authority that uses this word, I would not consider it correct. --Iustinus 14:21, 16 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
- I agree: deportus looks like a nonword, and we've already got several well-attested terms for 'game' and 'sport'; see above. IacobusAmor 15:05, 16 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
- Looks like a place where they might send off exiles. Catilina, e Roma relegatus, ad deportum advenit.--Ioshus Rocchio 15:15, 16 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
In the afternoon of July the 17th, I read this page, so I decided to clear up some points, because I created this text when I talked about sport in Italy and I did not find names of sports in Latin.
- According to my dictionary of Italian language, "sport" is a English word that meaned "amusement" at first and derives from French word "desport", like Italian word "diporto"; "diporto" comes from verb "diportarsi", in the sense of "to move, for entertainment, from a place to another one"; "diportare" is composed of "di-" and "portare"; "di-" is a folk form of Latin prefix "de-", that indicated separation.
According to my English monolingual dictionary, "sport" is a short form of "disport", that derives from the Old French verb "desporter"; "desporter" is composed of "des-" ("dis-") and "porter" (in Latin "portare", that means "to carry"); "dis-" is a direct form of Latin prefix "dis-", connected with "bis" ("twice"), originally "duis" ("dyis") in Greek, and "duo" ("two"), or is a form of "dés-", "dé-" (in French), "des-" (in Old French), "dis-" and "di-" (in Latin) or "dis-" (in late Latin), that come from Latin prefix "de-".
According to my bilingual dictionary of Spanish, "sport" is traslated with "deporte".
- According to my bilingual dictionary of Latin, "sport" includes "ludus" ("game"), "certamen" ("competition"), "corporis exercitatio" ("exercise of the body") and "delectamentum" ("amusement").
- I do not know if my translations are barbarisms, but I am sure that I controlled all my books and I chose the best words. I looked for terms in my bilingual dictionary of Latin; I read etymologies in my monolingual dictionaries of Italian and English; I compared words in Italian, French and Spanish (but in English and German, as well); I used foreign terms only when it was strictly necessary, for words that have their roots in Germanic or Oriental languages.
I have an explanation for every word!
- I think that "ice-skating" is a kind of "patinaticum".
- I have a long list of sports to traslate in my dictionary of Italian.
--131.175.57.17 13:28, 19 Iulii 2006 (UTC)Andreas Victor
- You have used an intriguingly archaic sense of the word 'control' in your English (calqued from your Italian?). This may illuminate the type of problem existing in the approach made to the other languages.—Myces Tiberinus 22:51, 19 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
- I noticed that, too. On first glance I thought it was "patrolled". Myces is right, though. An explanation for every word is not necessarily enough. Has anyone ever called sport deportus in an attested latin text? Then we may have a case. A logical coinage is not sufficient. It's like my italian teacher always told me, just because I know latin, doesn't mean I know italian =].--Ioshus Rocchio 23:03, 19 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry to have used words without cases in attested Latin texts: I thought that etymological criteria were sufficent; in fact, I read many terms which are missing in my Latin dictionary, so I considered that Latin Wikipedia accepts even Latinized present words. When I created the page about "deportus", I thought that it was a good idea, because there were not a link to sport in the home page; I made a list of sports because I needed these terms and I considered that anyone can add synonims, because I need various words. I will write remaining texts I prepared, maybe, before I go back to geographical and historical subjects about Italy, that do not need modern words.--131.175.57.10 13:15, 27 Iulii 2006 (UTC) Andreas Victor
- Well, the public nature of wiki means people will (hopefully) always be trying to improve the text as it stands. And as far as I can tell when people think of improving a Latin text, they mean classicizing as much as possible, and avoiding neologisms—which is basically what this talk page discussion is trying to do. Personally I would prefer to see a foreign word kept foreign, and italicized, than see it clumsily Latinized. Someone who knows better can always come by and translate a foreign concept later, while a strange construction may be indecipherable to everyone but the person who made it. —Myces Tiberinus 22:08, 27 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
- This discussion may have been going on elsewhere, but I think it's one of the most vital to the Vicipaedia. Is it predominantly formal-etymological Latinization that is being strived for or is there some ambition to describe modern terms as an ancient Roman would see them. I think there are advantages to both. Of the latter, there is an excellent example in the autocinetum article (a part of the motor works machinae molaris instar or something).
- Whatever way, I think that finally Deportus has to go. How about keeping it for the time being and just adding suggestions for every sport before someone made an article of them. Some words are in the Vaticans Lexicon recentis Latinitatis, but not all are in terms of the latter goal mentioned above.--Iovis Fulmen 09:18, 28 Iulii 2006 (UTC)
On August the 1st, I read two comments about my opinion concerning deportus, so I prepared a list of considerations.
- I use Italicized foreign words only in extreme cases: first of all, I fear that nobody understands original names, because they always relate to marginal questions, which are missing in my Latin dictionary; al last, I suppose that the text can not be understood without declension.
- When I had to traslate "car", I did not use autocinetum, because I did not know this word: my Latin dictionary suggests currus motorius, but I sometimes need a single term, so I write automobilis, because it is called automobile in Italian, the Romance language which is more similar to Latin.
- I can divide the words I wrote in three classes: terms I found in my Latin dictionary, terms which have solid etimymological explanations, terms which can be guessed logically.
- The page must be orderly and precise: texts and illustrations about every sport must be in the page concerning that sport.
- I started to write this page much earlier than this disputation had originited and I thought to enumerate all sports before I describe them.--131.175.57.16 13:44, 3 Augusti 2006 (UTC) Andreas Victor
- Isn't it funny how we keep inventing things? A car is a wheeled vehicle (or, since the 19th century, the compartment under a balloon, or, since the 20th century, the compartment of an elevator), and if you look up car in a nonrecent English-Latin wordhoard, you'll see it given in Latin as carrus, -i and currus, -us (and plaustrum & rota), and because English-speakers hardly ever say motorcar anymore, there's no need to expand the Latin term to include the idea of "moving," as in c(a/u)rrus motorius and autokineton and the like: we've had a serviceable term for 2,000 years. As for quasi-Latin automobile, -is (n.) 'self-moveable thing', Cicero redivivus, after a quick view of an urban expressway, may instantly understand the word, but won't he chuckle at the silliness of combining Greek & Latin? In general, I think, the first principle in finding Latin words for objects & concepts that postdate the Golden Age (or even the Renaissance) should be to start with attested terms. IacobusAmor 14:32, 24 Augusti 2006 (UTC)
Um... don't you think "sport" is a universal and ancient enough concept that we don't really even need to coin a neologism for it by any method? --Iustinus 02:54, 25 Augusti 2006 (UTC)
- Personally, I fully concur with both of you. I consider finding attested words for modern concepts is one of the most rewarding and creative tasks for Vicipaedia and may well serve to demonstrate the vigour of the Latin language. As for "sport", we all know of course that the primary aim of physical exercise was usually military, but for games like the Olympics and so on... Hence the term Categoria:Ludi athletici. On the other hand, physical exercise, to our modern understanding, extend beyond what the ancients would have understood by ludi, so is exercitatio a satisfying solution or should the separation be kept?--Iovis Fulmen 18:13, 27 Augusti 2006 (UTC)
- Actually I would say that the Romans were big on sport for its own sake as well, and that conversely the Olympics were at least symbolically preparation for war (all the competitions in the ancient Olympics were of a military nature, if you think about it). For "sport" I have generally used certamen athleticum, and unless someone can find a good locus classicus for something better, that's what I would recommend going with. --Iustinus 02:36, 28 Augusti 2006 (UTC)
On August the 30th, I had read four comments about sport, so I wrote some considerations after I had added last parts I found on my dictionaries.
- I used currus motorius because I had thought that dictionary means currus cum motore (cart with engine) and I reckon useful to distinguish wagons and chariots from cars.
- I consider usual to have combinations of Latin and Greek: Italian an French feminine words automobile, but Spanish masculine term automóvil too, justify the use of automobilis (-is, f.), because a immortal Cicero would have used it. I want to say that I translated the Italian word autostrada (expressway) with automobilis via strata (paved road of the car) and via curribus motoriis pervia (road passable to cars). Because of same reasons, I would translate autocarro (lorry) with autocurrus.
- I am convinced that erudite and vulgar words in the etymological part of my dictionaries are attested terms.
- I think that my dictionary says sport is not equal to a single Latin word, so I wrote four classical terms and I coined the etymological equivalent neologism, to include every meaning.
- I think that Latin has a vital structure, but I consider that vocabulary is "quantitatively" poor: my dictionary of Italian has 134000 words, my bilingual dictionary of Italian and English has 145000 words and my monolingual dictionary of English has 85000 words, but my bilingual dictionary of Italian and Latin contains only 47000 Latin terms and 30000 Italian terms, so I need to use strange words when the translations are missing or there are not bijections with modern things.
- I think that page exercitatio corporis must exist, but her category has to be called deportiva.
- I think that certamen athleticum is a good translation for "competition of athletics": ancien events included only this discipline and I could use it, but I would not define every contemporary tourney in this way.
--131.175.57.10 13:40, 5 Septembris 2006 (UTC) Andreas Victor
- With so many terms, it's hard to know where to start. Rowing has been remigatio (and remigium) for more than 2000 years. Why does it need to become remigandi certamen? A sled has been a traha for about as long, but why must it now become a sled? For "dogsled," instead of the proposed Latin sledog, some appropriate combination of traha and canis should work. Etc. IacobusAmor 17:05, 5 Septembris 2006 (UTC)
- Well remigandi certamen is not exactly the same thing as remigatio, so I'm OK with that one. But that still leaves dozens of other problems. --Iustinus 03:04, 6 Septembris 2006 (UTC)
- Except in the Real World, when asked what sport they did in college, people are much likelier to say "rowing" than "competition in rowing" or "competitive rowing" or "rowing regatta." As a rule, people shorten words & phrases. We almost invariably say "soccer," not "association football"; "Rugby," not "Rugby football"; "Soc Sci 1," not "Social Sciences 1"; "the U.S." or "the United States," not "the United States of America." Most of the time, We deploy extra terms only when they're needed to distinguish the special from the general, as in "Canadian football" and "table tennis."
- Also, my dictionary has this note (quoted above): "When sport denotes the pleasure taken in the exercise of any particular game, it is to be rendered in Latin by some word expressing that species of recreation; as, for hunting, Venatio, venatus; for fowling, Aucupium, aucupatio; for fishing, Piscatio, piscatus." Just plain remigatio & remigium fit this pattern. IacobusAmor 03:36, 6 Septembris 2006 (UTC)
- Andreas, please keep in mind that even when we're dealing with modern things like automobiles, we are not the first people to deal with the problem of writing about them in Latin. For instance, most Latinists use autocinetum or less formally raeda (when context makes it clear) for "car." Currus is generally used instead for "tank." Now, this is just an example of a wider point: before it comes down to creating your own brand new neologism, you should check to make sure it's truly needed. The sporting events are not exactly an obscure subject, so it is not that hard to find precident for what to call them in Latin. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. --Iustinus 03:04, 6 Septembris 2006 (UTC)