User talk:JSFarman/Archive 5
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... Dear JSFarman:
Thank you for reviewing the article of Marcan Entertainment. We've made an adjustment to the language of the article to be more on the side of neutral point of view as you pointed out with some key words.
I would like to convey two things to counter your objections in regards to showing music release (in which you’ve mentioned it wasn’t necessary to show all the release) and notability of Marcan Entertainment.
First, I would like to reference these two music production companies that are published articles on Wikipedia where they’ve listed all of their releases. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dsign_Music and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandit
Please note that Dsign Music (Pop music production label) uses the term “Production Highlights” but they are in fact its all of their music release since inception of the company to present. We are fully aware of the company’s release since they are in same K-pop and Asian music market. Also, their website depicts same releases as their Wikipedia page reflects.
Also, Vandit (EDM production label) uses the term “Releases” which shows inconsistent sequences of releases but it’s most of their music releases that were released to the public. It may confuse the reader of the article because release sequences numbers are random but when you go into Vandit.com website, it lists all of their releases in this order, which matches the releases from their Wikipedia article. (i.e. in the beginning of the release article, they start at random but starting towards the middle of the page, it lists its release from “VANDIT 001 through “VANDIT 109” there are few missing releases because they were never released to the public.)
Second, it’s agreeable that Marcan Entertainment’s references and its presence on the Internet may be limited because it’s music publishing and production company that is only over 3 years old. Unless the reviewer is keen and informative on Asian market specifically such as Kpop (Korean pop music), it may be portrayed as less qualified in the qualification of notability.
However, there are two sources to verify the legitimacy of the notoriety in the field of Kpop music. The first obvious reason is CD album jackets that reflect the releases of Marcan Entertainment’s tracks. All the Kpop artists’ album that Marcan had worked on shows the credit of Marcan Entertainment writers and Marcan Entertainment as publisher. (I’m not sure Wikipedia accepts photos scan of CD jackets to suffice the concern of valid music production credits.) But for now, you can verify and match the writers name on the releases that are listed from Marcan Writer/Producer section to the Wikipedia album pages below.
Other source is the sales number of physical copies of CD albums that were sold through out the world that includes Marcan Entertainment's releases not including digital downloads. Total volume of sales are over 3.5 million records worldwide. Here are some highlights.
- Hyori Lee – H-LOGIC (4th Album) – Sold 31,756 copies (As of 2010) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-Logic
- f/x - Pinocchio (1st Album) - Sold 128,179 (As of September 2011) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinocchio_(f(x)_album)
- SHINee – Lucifer (2nd Album) – Sold 250,180 copies (As of 2010) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer_(Shinee_album)
- SHINee – The First (Japan Release) – Sold 100,000+ (As of 2011) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_First_(album)
- SHINee – Lucifer (Japan Single Release) – Sold 62,193 (As of 2011) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer_(Shinee_song)
- SHINee - Why So Serious? (The 3rd Album) - Sold 155,941 (As of May 2013) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_So_Serious%3F_%E2%80%93_The_Misconceptions_of_Me
- Super Junior – Bonamana (4th Album) – Sold 403,000+ copies (As of December 2013) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonamana
- Super Junior – Mr. Simple (5th Album) – Sold 551,332+ copies (As of September 2013) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Simple
- TVXQ – Tone (5th Album / Japan Release) – Sold 331,320 (As of 2011) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_(TVXQ_album)
- EXO – XOXO (1St Album /World-Wide Release) Sold 1,712,222+ (As of December 2013) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XOXO_(album)
Physical CD's that were sold above has the name Marcan Entertainment as publisher/producer and its writers credited for songs and tracks that were produced and written inside the CD jacket. Lastly, please bear in mind that Dsign Music and Vandit whose articles are published in Wikipedia doesn’t have much presence on the Internet as you can even see on their Wikipedia page. These two companies are serving the general public in similar capacity as Marcan Entertainment, except Vandit's productions are mainly in Electronic Dance Music (EDM). Also, please note that Marcan Entertainment’s publication of music volume sales (3.5 mm plus and on going) mentioned above alone out paces by far all of Vandit’s catalogue release sales volume up to date.
I hope I was able to clarify some of the questionable notations you made in this regard. I’ll wait for your favorable reply.
-freefive Freefive (talk) 22:17, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
- Hi Freefive (talk). Thank you for taking so much time with this, and also, thank you for editing the article and removing the non-neutral terms. Marcan may well be notable based on the amount of music that's been sold, but that needs to be highlighted and demonstrated. Maybe start with explaining what Marcan Entertainment is, and say that the catalogue has sold more more than 3.5 million songs/albums/etc? Then you just need to reference it. (It needs to be verifiable through an independent, reliable source.)
- Re: Vandit and Dsign Music: Please see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS.
- Re: Full catalogue listing - it's less onerous now that you've removed the promotional language from the article. But it would be helpful if you wikilinked the releases that can be wikilinked, as you've done above. A reader should be easily able to access information about the music if it's available. See WP:LINK. Also - it's not incumbent upon the reader to do the research necessary to track down the affiliation between the records/artists and Marcan Entertainment. Anything (reliable, independent) that you can reference? Consider also just including "notable releases" that can be verified. See WP:VERIFY as well as WP:MOS for alternative formatting options.
- The fact that the company is only three years old and that coverage doesn't yet exist isn't relevant. See WP:NRV. Also - neither a reviewer nor a reader should need to be "keen and informative on Asian market specifically such as Kpop (Korean pop music)" to understand why the subject of the article is notable. It needs to be evident to any reader, regardless of his/her expertise.
- The references you used in the original submission don't demonstrate notability: the Marcan website, Facebook, and Twitter aren't independent, and the remaining references are about artists, not the company. You need references that are specifically about Marcan Entertainment.
- The article as it currently stands is much better than it was! Feel free to hit me back after you've added the references, and I'll be glad to take a look at it again. Thanks! Julie JSFarman (talk) 01:55, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
Dear Ms. Farman:
Thank you so much for your sound advice! I apologize about editing the talk constantly. I didn't know that you were being notified every time I made a correction. I've taken your advice and updated the page with references. Some of the references are in Korean language but they are from reputable sources. I've also updated with appropriate links from outside sources as well as wikipedia pages to its subjects and context. Please review it at your convenience and let me know what else might be needed to better the article. Thank you again and hope you had wonderful and safe holidays.
-freefive Freefive (talk) 00:41, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- Hello again Freefive (talk), and happy new year! The article looks much better; what you've done with the wikilinks is perfect. I'm still concerned about the lack of references, though. I'm not saying that Marcan isn't notable, but according to WP policies, notability needs to be demonstrated by independent sources covering the company in-depth. That means articles (or books, journals, etc) that are expressly about Marcan. It may just be that it's too soon. (I know you said that the company is young.) Please resubmit the article when you feel confident that you've added the necessary sources! Thanks. Julie JSFarman (talk) 05:41, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Dear Ms. Farman,
Thanks for your reply. I’ve delved into the guidelines of notability stated by Wikipedia and found applicable rules that help Marcan Entertainment article to be published. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability
Under the general notability guideline it states:
• "Reliable" means sources need editorial integrity to allow verifiable evaluation of notability, per the reliable source guideline. Sources may encompass published works in all forms and media, and in any language. Availability of secondary sources covering the subject is a good test for notability. • "Sources"[2] should be secondary sources, as those provide the most objective evidence of notability. There is no fixed number of sources required since sources vary in quality and depth of coverage, but multiple sources are generally expected.[3] Sources do not have to be available online and do not have to be in English. Multiple publications from the same author or organization are usually regarded as a single source for the purposes of establishing notability.
This guideline states “published works in all forms and media, and in any language” is also a common factor determining the notability of the subject and “availability of secondary sources covering the subject is good test for notability”.
Under the guidelines and definition provided by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Published
CD and DVD format available to general public that is accessible for review in some manner is defined as accessible source and published works.
'• A film, video, CD, or DVD distributed to theatres or video stores; a radio program including its contents actually broadcast; a television broadcast; a streaming video or audio source on the Internet; a song recording distributed to a public; '
Examples of accessible (defined by Wikipedia)
* An item that is available, in at least one public library, anywhere in the world, is considered "accessible".
* A book that can be bought in at least one store, anywhere in the world, including a used bookstore, is "accessible".
* A live event that was neither recorded nor transcribed is "inaccessible".
* A web list or forum must be both public and archived in a public location to be considered "accessible".
* A radio or television program that is archived by the broadcaster is "accessible" if the broadcaster allows people to visit the studio and listen to the program (perhaps for a fee); it is "inaccessible" if the general public is not allowed to listen to the program.
* Any item that is inaccessible, due to zero copies being available to the public at this time (even if copies were available to the public once upon a time) is "inaccessible"'
Our published works are accessible by general public through all of these methods above. Also, this means the reference source doesn’t necessarily have to be “books, scholar, JSTOR” to be qualified for independent sources.
Since Marcan Entertainment is a music production and publishing company, having a verified source such as CD imprints that contains “Marcan Entertainment” as publisher and producer for mentioned releases that are available through public libraries, itunes, other publicly available internet music merchants and sites, and music record stores world-wide, alone should be sufficient for notability criteria defined by Wikipedia.
Hence, if anyone who is reading the article of Marcan Entertainment can verify the notability by accessing CD albums that contains Marcan’s releases and there will be no doubt in any reader’s mind that Marcan is music publishing and production company (in which that’s exactly what the article entails nothing more.)
As in regards to verifiability and its notability requirement:
Notability requires verifiable evidence
The common theme in the notability guidelines is that there must be verifiable, objective evidence that the subject has received significant attention from independent sources to support a claim of notability. The absence of citations in an article (as distinct from the non-existence of sources) does not indicate that the subject is not notable.
No subject is automatically or inherently notable merely because it exists: The evidence must show the topic has gained significant independent coverage or recognition, and that this was not a mere short-term interest, nor a result of promotional activity or indiscriminate publicity, nor is the topic unsuitable for any other reason. Sources of evidence include recognized peer reviewed publications, credible and authoritative books, reputable media sources, and other reliable sources generally.
Editors evaluating notability should consider not only any sources currently named in an article, but also the possibility of notability-indicating sources that are not currently named in the article. Notability requires only the existence of suitable independent, reliable sources, not their immediate citation. Wikipedia articles are not a final draft, and an article's subject can be notable if such sources exist, even if they have not been named yet. However, once an article's notability has been challenged, merely asserting that unspecified sources exist is seldom persuasive, especially if time passes and actual proof does not surface. If it is likely that significant coverage in independent sources can be found for a topic, deletion due to lack of notability is inappropriate.
This policy indicates subject has to have significant attention from independent sources (published works that includes all forms of media) to support the claim of notability. I believe this policy is sufficed through already sold 3.5 million and on going published material (CD albums) that reflects Marcan Entertainment as publisher and producer for claimed works. And also, the availability of these works to general public in the world is surely accessible through stated medium by Wikipedia.
This policy also concludes “Notability requires “only” the “existence” of suitable independent, reliable sources, not their immediate citation”. This further supports that Marcan Entertainment has met the criteria of notability. When you click on the “existence” from Wikipedia:Notability page, it leads to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Published which I’ve demonstrated with afore mentioned.
Another policy by Wikipedia you might want to look at is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(music)
Under this notability guideline, it states
Criteria for musicians and ensembles [edit]
A musician or ensemble (note that this includes a band, singer, rapper, orchestra, DJ, musical theatre group, instrumentalist, etc.) may be notable if it meets at least one of the following criteria:
* 1. Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent from the musician or ensemble itself.[note 1] This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, books, magazine articles, online versions of print media, and television documentaries[note 2] except for the following: Any reprints of press releases, other publications where the musician or ensemble talks about themselves, and all advertising that mentions the musician or ensemble, including manufacturers' advertising.[note 3] Works consisting merely of trivial coverage, such as articles that simply report performance dates, release information or track listings, or the publications of contact and booking details in directories. Articles in a school or university newspaper (or similar), in most cases.'
* 2. Has had a single or album on any country's national music chart.[note 4]
* 3. Has had a record certified gold or higher in at least one country.
* 4. Has received non-trivial coverage in independent reliable sources of an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one sovereign country.[note 5]
* 5. Has released two or more albums on a major record label or on one of the more important indie labels (i.e., an independent label with a history of more than a few years, and with a roster of performers, many of whom are notable).
* 6. Is an ensemble which contains two or more independently notable musicians, or is a musician who has been a reasonably-prominent member of two or more independently notable ensembles.[note 6] This should be adapted appropriately for musical genre; for example, having performed two lead roles at major opera houses.
* 7. Has become one of the most prominent representatives of a notable style or the most prominent of the local scene of a city; note that the subject must still meet all ordinary Wikipedia standards, including verifiability.
* 8. Has won or been nominated for a major music award, such as a Grammy, Juno, Mercury, Choice or Grammy's award.
* 9. Has won or placed in a major music competition.
* 10. Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, e.g., a theme for a network television show, performance in a television show or notable film, inclusion on a notable compilation album, etc. (But if this is the only claim, it is probably more appropriate to have a mention in the main article and redirect to that article. Read WP:BLP1E and WP:BIO1E for further clarifications)
* 11. Has been placed in rotation nationally by a major radio or music television network.
* 12. Has been a featured subject of a substantial broadcast segment across a national radio or TV network.
Even though, Marcan Entertainment isn’t exactly a musician, but I believe it fits the criteria of musician since Marcan produces and publishes music. It also meets more than one criteria mentioned above in terms of music that was released through Marcan Entertainment. (1-3, 5, 7, 10, 11 for these criteria, it is absolutely applicable in Asia (Korea, Japan, & Southeast Asian countries)
In conclusion, your mention of “cover in-depth” about a company through independent sources omits other reliable source as stated by Wikipedia:Notability policy.
It clearly states that “Editors evaluating notability should consider not only any sources currently named in an article, but also the possibility of notability-indicating sources that are not currently named in the article. Notability requires only the existence of suitable independent, reliable sources, not their immediate citation. Wikipedia articles are not a final draft, and an article's subject can be notable if such sources exist, even if they have not been named yet.”
I believe above statement from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability explains other sources such as published materials (All other forms of media including CD imprints) should be considered as reference for notability even though they’re not cited immediately since Wikipedia articles are not final draft but on-going public article.
I hope I was able to justify Marcan's notability according to the guidelines of notability provided by Wikipedia. Thanks again for your input and I'll look forward to your favorable and thorough response in accordance with notability guidelines I've mentioned above. Freefive (talk) 17:22, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
- Hi again Freefive (talk). Thank you once again for your thoughtful response. That said, Marcan isn't a musician or composition. You yourself described it as "music production, publishing and management company" in the article. I don't believe you've established notability -- see WP:CORP. However, You've made significant improvements to the article, and you should resubmit it -- I've certainly made mistakes in assessing notability previously. Another reviewer might interpret the guidelines differently, and you'll have the favorable result you're looking for. Happy editing, and thanks again for your efforts! Julie
Dear Ms. Farman,
I appreciate your encouraging feedback. Please forgive me if I sound like as if I'm trying to step on your toes for this. But even in WP:CORP, it clearly states, "This page is to help determine whether an organization (commercial or otherwise), or any of its products and services, is a valid subject for a separate Wikipedia article dedicated solely to that organization or product. The scope of this guideline covers all groups of people organized together for a purpose, although people gathered for more specific purposes may be governed by more specific guidelines. For example, people gathered together for the purpose of making music are covered by WP:MUSIC.
According to this rule, it even states that the company (that has formed by people who gathered together for the purpose of making the music) is specifically covered by WP:MUSIC. Marcan Entertainment's article never deviated from the fact that company is music production and publishing company. In this case, I'm not sure what kind of impression you got from Marcan Entertainment's article other than that company is set up by music producers that publishes K-Pop music worldwide. So in retrospect, this article should have reviewed in accordance with correct notability criteria as mentioned in WP:CORP WP:NMUSIC.
I will resubmit this article as it fits all criteria that is mentioned by Wikipedia WP:CORP WP:NMUSIC. Thank you again for your review and precious time. It was quite a learning experience.
Freefive (talk) 18:40, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
- Freefive (talk): Let's agree to disagree. No need to continue leaving me messages -- my assessment won't change unless you're able to add references that establish the company's notability. Your article will be reviewed by someone else, and, as noted above, he/she may feel differently. Thanks. JSFarman (talk) 19:03, 7 January 2014 (UTC)