User:LouisAragon/sandbox
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The additional sources cited by HoI all reinforce several important points that this article currently fails to present. 1) The overglofirication of the Battle of Thermopylae in later Western conscious as some part of united "Western" heritage 2) the overglorification of some sort of Western/European ideal of liberty vs Asian/Oriental despotism. 3) the lack of a contemporaneous Persian POV (Waters, 2014). Dabashi can be attributed appropriately, but I don't see any reason to believe he's WP:FRINGE. Khirurg has failed to present any sort of counter evidence from WP:RS that would discredit the views as cited above (Brill, Wiley & Sons ×2, Cambridge University PresS), including that of Dabashi (Harvard University Press). I think this discussion has "indeed" ended. - LouisAragon (talk) 22:56, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- "and I couldn't find any rule that forbids adding such a tag for sources disputed to be unreliable"
- Just because the template says such tag can be added, doesn't mean it should be inserted into every page where the reference has been cited. Imagine the ref had been cited in 50 pages. Would you have added the tag to all those pages? Remember, WP:COMPETENCE is required when editing.
- "...such as "the talk page section didn't result in what [I] would have liked seeing vis-a-vis Arakelova,"
- Then what exactly are you trying to prove vis-a-vis Arakelova?
- "an attempt to force users into kow-tow,"
- Ehm. You inserted five tags---- throughout various Wikipedia articles in which Arakelova had been cited after WP:RSN and Talk:Azerbaijanis did not yield a satisfactory result and also wrote an edit summary wherein you stated
...The purpose here is not to be disruptive but to be provocative and invite editors to finally put the discussion to rest at Talk:Azerbaijanis#Arakelova. Feel free to revert this, but please contribute to the discussion.
Sounds like an attempt to enforce other user's into accepting your demands. - - LouisAragon (talk) 00:51, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
Do you have any references that discredit her academic work or that of her journal in relation to this topic?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-05-31/Discussion_report
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2014-02-12/In_the_media
https://www.azernews.az/nation/127091.html
to remove mention of the word "Azeris" from the lede. This word is very commonly used in English WP:RS to refer to this ethnic group. A Google.books search on "Azeris" provides 41.700 hits, Google.Scholar gives 9620 hits, Brill's database gives 5979 hits, and jstor gives 1055 hits. Any further attempts to remove said word will be regarded as WP:TENDENTIOUS editing. - LouisAragon (talk) 14:47, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
Thus, according to the 1897 census, the Christians outnumbered the Muslim population. If one combines just the Georgians and Armenian population, it far outnumbered the Tatars (later Azeris): 49,04% to 29,24%. Unfortunately, some post-Soviet historians, in an effort to construct national histories and to create national identities, manipulated the above figures to suit their purposes. This was especially true of Russian and Azerbaijani historians who, beginning in the 1930s and continuing throughout the Soviet era, not only identified all the Muslims who resided in the South Caucasus after the 16th century, as “Azerbaijanis”, but also placed certain regions (such as Nakhichevan, Sharur and Zakatal), which in the 19th century were part of the Yerevan and Tiflis provinces, as being part of 19th-century “Azerbaijan”! Following the collapse of the Soviet Union, Azerbaijani historians have totally ignored the historic Armenian presence in the above provinces, and have asserted that not only the Armenians were newcomers to the region, but that the present-day Armenian Republic is part of “northern Azerbaijan”, with the Iranian province of Azarbaijan constituting part of Azeri historic territory, which they refer to as “southern Azerbaijan”.
The name of Azerbaijan historically, had always been used for the northwestern region of contemporary Iran; better known as Iranian Azerbaijan. The directly adjacent and closely related region to the north of the Aras River, comprising the modern-day Republic of Azerbaijan, was always referred to as Arran and/or Shirvan. Though the two areas were almost always united throughout history, as were in general the entire territory of modern-day Azerbaijan Republic and most of Iran, until the Russians conquered the Transcaucasus and Dagestan from Qajar Iran through the Russo-Iranian wars of 1804-1813 and 1826-1828, there was a clear distinction in naming, until recently.
In 1918, the Musavat government adopted the name "Azerbaijan" for the newly established Azerbaijan Democratic Republic, which was proclaimed on May 27 1918,[1] for political reasons,[2][3][4] even though the name of Azerbaijan was always used to refer to the adjacent region of contemporary northwestern Iran.
On the adoptation of the already in-use name of Azerbaijan by the Mussavatists numerous people commented throughout history;
- Dekmejian & Simonian;[5]
"Until 1918, when the Musavat regime decided to name the newly independant state Azerbaijan, this designation had been used exclusively to identify the Iranian province of Azerbaijan."
- Babak Rezvani;[6]
"The region to the north of the river Araxes was not called Azerbaijan prior to 1918, unlike the region in northwestern Iran that has been called since so long ago."
"(...) whenever it is necessary to choose a name that will encompass all regions of the republic of Azerbaijan, name Arran can be chosen. But the term Azerbaijan was chosen because when the Azerbaijan republic was created, it was assumed that this and the Persian Azerbaijan will be one entity, because the population of both has a big similarity. On this basis, the word Azerbaijan was chosen. Of course right now when the word Azerbaijan is used, it has two meanings as Persian Azerbaijan and as a republic, its confusing and a question rises as to which Azerbaijan is talked about."
B.G. Fragner;[8]
"In the post Islamic sense, Arran and Shirvan are often distinguished, while in the pre-Islamic era, Arran or the western Caucasian Albania roughly corresponds to the modern territory of the republic of Azerbaijan. In the Soviet era, in a breathtaking manipulation, historical Azerbaijan (northwestern Iran) was reinterpreted as "South Azerbaijan" in order for the Soviets to lay territorial claim on historical Azerbaijan proper which is located in modern-day northwestern Iran."
Harun Yilmaz;[9]
"On May 27, the Democratic Republic of Azerbaijan (DRA) was declared with Ottoman military support. The rulers of the DRA refused to identify themselves as [Transcaucasian] Tatar, which they rightfully considered to be a Russian colonial definition. (...) Neighboring Iran did not welcome did not welcome the DRA's adoptation of the name of "Azerbaijan" for the country because it could also refer to Iranian Azerbaijan and implied a territorial claim."
The poet Nezami Ganjavi (born himself in what is the modern-day Republic of Azerbaijan) in his famous Khusraw and Shirin mentions the distinction between "Arran o Arman" and "Adharbayagan" in the same epic poem,[10] which clearly shows they were separate lands.
On 27 May 1918, when the new republic of Azerbaijan was proclaimed by the Mussavatist government to the north of the Aras River, the adoptation of the name "Azerbaijan" caused consternation in Iran, especially amongst Azerbaijani intellectuals. Mohammad Khiyabani and his fellow Democrats, in order to dissociate themselves from Transcaucasia decided the change the name of Iranian Azerbaijan to Azadistan (freedomland). By way of justyfing this decision, they referred to the important "heroic role" their Azerbaijani brethren to the north of the Aras river had played in the struggle to establish the constitution in Iran, which, in their view, warranted adopting the new name Azadistan.[11]