Talk:Upper Hungary
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I have some questions about the new section:
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1, It seems unprobable that Felvidék ever meant "all territories to the north of the settlement of the speaker". For example a man in Szeged never called Kecskemét "Felvidék" only because it is north from his town.
- By coincidence, I came across a new big book specially dedicated to Magyars in Slovakia. The felvidék etc. topic is extensively treated there. And according to that book, this is what Hungarian professional texts were saying about felvidék in the 19th century. Actually, the term had no special meaning at that time.
2, Today nobody calls Carpathian Ruthenia Felvidék, the term was only used before the second world war when the territory was part of Czechoslovakia.
- Today not, but between the world wars. It is explained in the text.
3, I have never heard that Felvidék means only the Hungarian speaking fringe of Slovakia. This territory hasn't got any name until now. Zello 16:10, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
- I know, this is a bit confusing. For example, there are web pages called felvidék where the term is used that way. Also, if you ask some Slovak Magyars they will confirm this (actually wrong) usage. And, the territories annexed under the Vienna Award were called Felvidék (although this could be interpreted as part of Felvidék - I do not know)...Juro 16:30, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I think we should agree in the second and third question. Hungarians in Slovakia call themselves sometimes "felvidéki magyarok" but this means only that they live in the former Felvidék ie. Slovakia as a whole. In 1938 the term was used in this meaning too - the returned southern part of Felvidék. There isn't any separate name and identity for the Hungarian fringe, only microregions exist as Zitny ostrov, Hont etc.
I'm sure there is some mistake in the first question. I'm inclined to believe that villagers in the zone between the mountains and the lowlands used the term in the meaning you wrote but this should be some local speciality. It would be great if you'd check the source about the exact situation. Zello 16:44, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that the book is quite expensive, so I will have to try to remember as much as I can when reading it in the store :) (which I will do in the course of the next few hours, if you insist, but I remember this information just because it is so surprising).Juro 16:55, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Ok, it seems a very interesting fact but I'm sure we need a more exact definition. Zello 17:04, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I have been there, I tried to remember whole sentence, but now that I am writing this I see that I failed to do so. Anyway, there were two quotes of Hungarian geographers, one says that both Fels... and Felvidék are "literary" terms and have no particular meaning and that the latter refers "from place to place" (what ever that means) to any region with respect to that place that is placed at a higher altitude than the given settlement. So, theoretically it could be used for any territory where there are mountains in Hungary or say to the territory to the north of Banská Bystrica. Of course there are also other quotes there saying that the meaning is something like "mountains in the north". Juro 22:50, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
- This seems reasonable enough. Probably it was sometimes used as a general synonim for "felföld".
- The Middle Ages section is absolutely OK for me although I think this retrospective usage is not really wrong or inprecise. It's a convention among Hungarian historians as a generally accepted, "timeless" geographical term, similarly that we speak about Transdanubia in the Roman times.
- Well, this is a general problem about language: it is historically inprecise, because it was not used at that time - that's the information the sentence is supposed to convey, butin terms of language, you can always say that any error is correct just because people make it frequently (this is by the way what I do not like about the English language - they just declare errors correct after some time, how ever big the errors might be and this is how the language evolves and this is why it is so chaotic compared to other languages; other languages have this too, but to a far lesser extent)
Slovak historians use the term for the middle ages too, and I am quite sure 90% of them do not even know that the term as such did not exist at that time (because they just do not car and no usual history book treats this name issue in such details).
- I only deleted Felső-Magyarország from the 17-20th centuries section because I think the first paragraph should concentrante on this term and the second only for Felvidék. I imagined an Englishman who never heard about this problems and reading our article goes crazy :) Zello 05:43, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- But I think that since you changed "Upper Hungary" to the corresponding Magyar equivalents, there should be no confusion. Why should it be unclear know. I know it is hard for many people from the present-day USA and UK, but they have to concentrate a bit :))) Juro 05:26, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
I have modified the current notion of the word "Felvidék", although it is true that it may raise nationalist sentiments in some Slovak politicians, it is widely used especially in Hungary as a historical and cultural term (just as Erdély or Délvidék, or Kárpátalja), without any nationalist undertone (see for example guidebooks, cultural associations, tour operators,etc.)81.182.209.183 17:21, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
- Well, this is question at Zello. From my experience, it is certainly not "widely" used today. Juro 20:32, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Certainly not widely used although it is true that not only extremists call Slovakia Felvidék (of course they call) but many people with a certain nostalgia about the Kingdom of Hungary. After all it is the name of a historical region so in a Hungarian point-of-view not a "taboo". I don't think that is always used in a derogatory way against Slovaks. Zello 23:56, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
It is also incorrect that Slovaks were living in the region between the Tisza and the current Hungarian-Slovak border. In fact, the Hungarian population formed a compact majority along the Pozsony-Nyitra-Érsekújvár-Léva-Losonc-Kassa-Királyhelmec line, the borderline of which was correctly reflected in the Bartha-Hodza demarcation line which was nevertheless disregarded in the Trianon peace treaty.
- No, as always, you are just lying. There were Slovak islands with up to 100% Slovak population there according to HUNGARIAN sources (not to mention Czechoslovak ones). But that is completely irrelevant for this article, but it only describes what they thought and what was or was not there. Juro 20:32, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
At that point I should second Juro. Language islands really existed and the article doesn't suggest that Czechoslovakian claims were rightfull. Zello 23:56, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
- I tried to rephrase your version to a more NPOV variant because it is certainly unacceptable for non-Hungarians. Zello 17:33, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Language islands (or pockets) did exist but not between the Tisza and the current Hungarian-Slovak border. There were sparsely populated Slovak settlements in Békés county (mostly peasants). You would be well advised to study the ethnographic map of Kogutovicz Károly or the "carte rouge" of Pál Teleki (if you are familiar with them at all) before making such rush statements. 81.183.183.1 22:12, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Dear fascist vandal, what I said above holds. You would be well advised to look at simple census results, nothing more is necessary. Also you would be well advised to at least stick to one cover name. Juro 22:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Calling somebody fascist vandal only makes your argument weaker in this case. I thought that the anonym user's contributions were nationalistic and factually incorrect but this is not fascism. The question of Slovak minority in Northern Hungary is only a matter of facts. I accepted your version because I know some villages with Slovak population in Nógrád county. But why do you think that everybody knows such facts? Zello 18:11, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I call him fascist vandal not because of this page, but because he of his edits and vandalism in all other articles in this wikipedia. He is permanently changing his name, even within one discussion, but he can be clearly recognized by his highly primitive style. The "assume good faith" times of wikipedia are definitely over, it has become a place for all sorts of extremists and is so big now, that they can continue without being noticed by anybody (except by me and some others in this and some other cases). And I do not think that everybody knows such facts, I am just pointing out that he is deliberatly lying as he does in all his edits and comments in the wikipedia. Juro 20:04, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
OK, I didn't follow the events on other pages only this topic. Zello 22:17, 29 March 2006 (UTC)