Talk:Catholicity/Archive 1
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In discussing rites, you may wish to add that the Visigothic rite is still celebrated in a very few places, including a chapel in the cathedral at Toledo. - montréalais
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Questioning the accuracy here. The partriarch of Rome was not supreme in the early Church, and simply never 7managed to assert his authority over the east. The split in churches came about mainly because the pope did not recognise the supremacy of the emperor in ecclesiastical matters, and so should be more attributed to the west than the east, although for the most part it was just a reflection of the differences that had developed between the two areas. On this note, on Christianity it lists the orthodox church as a sort of catholicism - we should probably adopt either separating or grouping them conistently to avoid confusion.
I hope the text reflects your objection now.
I deleted this text someone added because it is incorrect and poorly written:
- While number of members seems impresive at first, it has to be considered that it includes everyone who was christen as a newborn baby. Actual number of members is not bigger (probably less) than half of the claimed number. Catholicism is also certainly not an oldest branch. It's roots are in early medieval times (some Asian churches are much older), and the most important dogmas differentiating Catholicism from other branches of Christianity, like Pope's supremacy over general council of bishops, and Assuption of Mary were passed in XIX and XX centuries.
The author that added this also deleted claims of Catholicism being oldest and largest branch; I think it is the largest and one of the oldest (though I would Eastern Orthodoxy are equally old); but I haven't put that back in because maybe it is incorrect -- Simon J Kissane
Thanks, Simon. You just provided a good example of how Wikipedia ought to work - general consensus prevails over particularist takes on the world.
We're never going to get a paragraph that satisfies the Great Schism question. They are equally old. Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are at base the same thing (I know, I know, I'm simplifying the problem). They are broken apart from each other, and the partisans of each side prefer to blame the other and/or declare that the other is completely invalid and that their section is the TRUE Church. The current Pope, JP II, who has a lifetime of contact with the Russian Orthodox and the Eastern Rite Catholics to draw on, refers to the Catholic and the Orthodox as the "two lungs" of the Church, implying that he recognizes equality or co-dependence or his willingness to talk or something. He hasn't been taken up on the offer very seriously.
--MichaelTinkler
Urgent: someone has apparently vandalized the text on Extreme Unction in the paragraph that begins "The practice of Catholic Church consists of seven sacraments..." I don't know the correct text here and am unable to restore. (27 September 2001)
Did the Eastern rite churches ever use Latin? This is not clear from the text. ---rmhermen
Isn't this a gross oversimplification? Protestants believe that salvation is by faith alone, while Catholics believe that salvation is by faith and works.
- It's a gross simplification of both positions. The two groups are much closer to each other on this issue than they once thought, and such a simplification masks a lot of diversity on the Protestant side on this issue. User:ClaudeMuncey
About celibacy: The NCRegister at http://www.ncregister.com/Register_News/060602cel.htm contains this, in part,
But celibacy goes all the way back to Jesus and the early bishops, like Paul, Timothy and Titus. The argument that celibacy was imposed in the Middle Ages to prevent Church property from being handed down to priests' sons is "invalid," said Father Thomas McGovern, author of "Priestly Celibacy Today." (See text of the full interview by clicking here.) From early on in the Church's history, the married men who sought ordination were required to commit to perpetual continence for the rest of their lives, a requirement that was codified in the early 300s, he said.
What doe strhe year 1066 have to do with the celibate priesthood? From article: "can only normally be occupied by unmarried men, since too much power was being amassed by families of churchmen prior to 1066." --rmhermen
- I don't believe it has anything to do with it; the West had celibate priests from early on; probably from the 300s as the NCRegister article says. The East had married priests and deacons from early on, as is still reflected in Eastern rite Catholicism and in Eastern Orthodoxy. I'm changing the text to reflect this. Wesley
Regarding the reason it's called the Roman Catholic Church in the opening paragraph: saying it's called Roman because it follows the Roman or Latin Rite would imply that the other rites are not Roman Catholic. As an Eastern Orthodox believer, I would lump all of the rites under the heading Roman Catholic because even the eastern rite patriarchs are still under the Bishop of Rome, Pope John Paul II. I think it's an important qualifier that reflects the history and acknowledges the continuing schism. As Michael Tinkler pointed out earlier on this page, Roman Catholics also claim to be orthodox, and Eastern Orthodox also claim to be catholic, when you get down to what those words mean. In any case, perhaps both the rite and the focus on the bishop of Rome should be mentioned in explaining the name, with attribution, etc. Wesley 18:29 Oct 2, 2002 (UTC)
Shouldn't most of this material be on a separate page for Roman Catholicism, which currently redirects here? Most of it seems to be talking about the Roman Church and goes on to assume that the institution whose head is the Pope is synonymous with "Catholic Church." Most Western Christians believe in one way or another in the Apostles' Creed and Nicene Creed, which speak of a holy catholic and apostolic Church; "catholic" here simply means "universal," and many Christians do not take them as referring to the Pope and his sect. ---Ihcoyc
- I understand the point you're making. If the material here were moved to Roman Catholicism, what would be left on this page? Wouldn't anything left belong on the Christianity page instead? It seems that the only net difference would be that the article would move to Roman Catholicism, and the Catholicism article would redirect there instead of vice versa. Is this what you envision? Wesley
- I'd put here a brief article that mentions the several creeds, and discuss the various meanings of "Catholic." I'd keep the bit at the beginning here about the various churches that explicitly define themselves as Catholic or have the word in their self-designations. Perhaps the parts about the non-Roman Rite churches who acknowledge the Pope as their head should stay here also. Then, there should be a cross-reference to the new "Roman Catholic," where the bulk of this material seems to belong.
- Sorry I haven't looked at this in so long. That actually sounds like a reasonable proposal. Anyone else have an opinion? Wesley 16:08 22 May 2003 (UTC)
- Sounds like a good idea to me. - Cafemusique 00:38 25 May 2003 (UTC)
I'm wondering about the relevance of this passage near the very end of the article (under "History of the Catholic Church"):
An interesting period in Renaissance Europe was the Catholic crusade against the imagination. In short, the religious proscription against imagery (except of specifically worshipful religious nature) was extended to include images that one merely imagined in the mind's eye.
Giordano Bruno most famously fell afoul of this crusade.
Perhaps as part of a broader section on, say, the Renaissance Church this would be worthwhile, but having it dangling as an isolated chunk tacked on the end of the article is rather jarring.
I won't delete it myself, but would urge the main contributors to consider either removing it or expanding it. ---Varenius
These titles have certain practical and spiritual authority associated with them, but the Roman Catholic Church considers really three levels of order, Pope, Bishop, and Priests. It is part of Catholic doctrine that each Bishop has a basic independance from each other and all authority except the Pope. This seems to be changing since Vatican II.
The Eastern Catholic rites were the rites retained by those who did not leave the Catholic Church during the break in the 11th century.
I removed these section since they are inaccurate: Eastern-rite bishops are appointted by the Patriarch of the rite, not the Pope; the Eastern rites entered into communion with Rome centuries after the great schism. Efghij
I find it concerning that this text does not mention any of the following:
- the various crusades
- witchhunts
- Inquisition- Spanish Inquisition, Roman Inquisition
- child sexual abuse and physical abuse of children and adults in Catholic-run schools and asylums, Catholic priests' sex abuse scandal
- censorship, book burnings, Index librorum prohibitorum
- celibacy
- Opus Dei and similar Catholic-run sects and the various financial and political scandals Catholicism has been involved in, including its historical support for the Nazi regime and its participation in the Rwanda genocide
Isn't it a bit striking that the article is so utterly devoid of links to any potentially negatively perceived facts? But then again, the Vatican seems to be of no importance to Catholicism either, since it is not even mentioned in the article. Saints appear to not exist. And how did the See also end up under "External links"?
Please, this article needs a lot of work. I have put it on Wikipedia:Pages needing attention. --Eloquence 23:50 24 May 2003 (UTC)
I find it concerning that "Eloquence" says she finds it all so "concerning". P.s. - this is not a witchhunt: I too tremble at the thought of lecherous priests charging about and belching fire, as they conduct grand inquisitions into who is thinking what. But then I wake up and remember it was all just romance - pretending things were bad, so that I could have the satisfaction of thinking I might make them better. Good for me - am I not great? Signed: your local Protestant/Atheist/Socialist/European.
(The earthly, institutional church is sometimes called the "visible" Church, to stress its unity with the departed faithful, the invisible Church; Roman Catholics do not consider departed faithful the "invisible" Church, but rather those who are saved via "baptism of desire").
This parenthesis doesn't line up with anything I've understood. The distinction between "visible" and "invisible" church is Protestant terminology, inherited from Wyclif and Hus, referring to the difference between the baptized elect and all of the baptized. In the Roman Catholic Church, the church on earth is called "the church militant", and the departed are called "the church suffering" (souls in purgatory), and "the church triumphant" (souls at rest). Mkmcconn 23:48 29 Jun 2003 (UTC)~
=== Social Degredation ===
- Although the idea of the Catholic church can be well commended in it's moral fortitude of the family and the love of life for which it upholds, unfortunately, there are things about the catholic church which have embarrased it in the past causing the slow decline of the church. Such things include the different classes of catholocism. Different groups of this religion have found themselves competing against each other, castigating the group that has lesser dedication and rules that are not as strict. This internal conflict has cause the divergence of the ideals of this religion and therefor, the degredation of its once powerful unity.
- On another subject, the Catholic church has been known to have sexual offenders as it's heads, offending and molesting children who know not of this manipulation. It has been estimated by the U.S. government that 1 in 10, or 10% of popes have molested a child in this manner. This statistic comes from evidence that has been acquired, it does not include those cases that were never revealed.
The first paragraph needs to be tightened up. It's unclear what is being said. Apparently, some personal familiarity with what it's like to be a Catholic is required to understand what it's referring to, because I do not understand it. The second paragraph does not fit any information I have ever heard. Perhaps it's referring to the percentage of priests, rather than "popes"? There is a page on the pedophile scandals, perhaps this information if it can be supported, should go there? Mkmcconn 04:55 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)
The first paragraph is POV. The second paragraph is complete fiction, with made up 'facts', made up statistics and is complete cobblers. FearÉIREANN 06:39 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- You mean you don't believe there's an official U.S. estimate of the percentage of popes who have molested children? You're so skeptical! <g> -- Someone else 06:53 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- How do you know that this information isn't correct? Why don't you ask the author for their source instead of acting stupid and emotional and making assumptions? MB 15:35 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- I am sorry you find me stupid. You'll have to take my word that the only emotion that the notion of the US estimating papal pedophilia percentage arouses in me is amusement. I didn't ask the author for a source because there is self-evidently no such statistic. Even if historical records existed from which a meaningful statistic might be produced (they don't), the US would have no reason to publish it, as it has no jurisdiction over popes, alive or dead, and no interest in generating controversy for controversy's sake. -- Someone else 01:23 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
According to studies the percentage of clergy who are pædophiles is 0.78% not "one in ten" (source: academic conference on pædophilia and the clergy reported in The Irish Times(not credible). That is 0.78% with pædophile tendencies. Many with such tendencies do not act of them. Statistically the claim that 10% of popes abused children is like saying that 10% of wikipedia users are pædophile. It is propagandist nonsense bordering on defamation. Even if 0.78% of popes were paedophilic which no-one believes, the nature of their job is such that they are based fulltime in a territory full of men, with no wives or girlfriends and no children. Their only contact with children is at public events where anything they did would be witnessed. Other than that, they spend 24 hours a day, seven days a week in an extremely restricted environment, where 95% of the people they come in contact with are men over the age of fifty (priests), and the other 5% are elderly nuns who run their household, and zero children.
And the Vatican is such a gossipy environment that everything they do is known. As popes themselves have said, there is no privacy to do anything, even if by some miracle they actually managed to come in contact with a child. Even their bedrooms aren't private, with security in the corridor, household staff popping in or out at any time, as well as aides. Pope Paul VI, who had had a homosexual relationship in his youth (though in 1967 as pope he denied being gay), commented that he would have had more privacy if he moved his bed out to the centre of St. Peter's Square, than he had in his private apartment, while so many people were in and out when Pius XII was dying that a quack doctor managed to get to the pope with a camera and photograph the dying pope; he then tried to sell pictures of the dying pope to the 1950s version of the gutter press. (They however found the pictures distasteful and refused to take them, just as newspapers have refused to run pictures of the dying Princess Diana, which were also taken.)
The first paragraph is highly POV, partly factually incorrect and suggests that the person who wrote it has an extremely limited experience based largely on inaccurate sources.
BTW, just in case you are curious, people very close to me were abused by Roman Catholic priests, so I am not in any sense an apologist for the raping of children by clergy. As a gay man I have also had direct experience of the homophobia of Catholicism so it is not exactly my favourite institution. I have been criticised for writing highly critical newspaper articles about Roman Catholism. But there is such a thing as fair criticism, which Roman Catholicism rightly deserves, and bullshit, which the above paragraphs are. Wikipedia as an encyclopædia has to publish facts, not bigoted propaganda, whether it is bigoted propaganda for or against catholicism. The two paragraphs in question are paranoid ignorant bullshit. FearÉIREANN 18:40 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- It may also have been written by a web-savvy child, trying to make sense of things; in which case, milder instruction might be effective. Mkmcconn 01:07 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I wrote those 2 paragraphs, I am 21 years old, my IQ is 178. I am impartial and have read all of your remarks. At first I wrote the 2 articles with no proof. Then, per request, I added some factual links for proof. Although I got the 10% statistic from watching dateline, I could not reproduce it in a form that could be confirmed online, so I have removed the percentages, but the rest has stayed. The entire point of this forum is for society to mix factual information with unwanted truth. What I am saying is that this is not an encyclopedia for 5 year olds. This is a forum for people of all ages in every country to learn the truth good == AND == bad. Notice how I respected the article and placed these truthful and degrading comments at the bottom of the article, so not to improperly inflence ones view of the church. If people are to learn of the church, they must also learn of its corruption. I am allowing the ignorant to learn from the truth. If you have any problems with this please understand that I will take your comments with just as much weight as those that would support the tarnishing of the church. Lies and corruption have no place in our new society, so let it go. If you think that by hiding other people's viewpoints you're purifying your religion, then think again. The truth will always show through and god hates the dishonest!Nostrum 02:10 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- It's unclear whether Nostrum understands how to read his Talk page, so I'm posting here too:
Hi Nostrum, I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish with your highly POV edits to Catholicism - they are rambling, with poor grammar & spelling, and just not Wikipedia caliber. It's clear you are on some anti-Catholic kick; there are other places on the net to vent yourself - not here. Since you insist on revelling in the so-called "sex-abuse scandal", you may consider working on the article Catholic priests' sex abuse scandal. Harris7 02:15 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I can say what I want. There is no standard to posting information. This program isn't about company policy, it's about freedom of expression, with the limit that the expressed ideas must have a factual standing. So rethink what you say. And if you are angry, then I forgive you child. Jesus would. Oh, and the reason I place this in the catholic file is because I want people to know of every possibility when it comes to searching on information on that subject. Many may not know of such a scandal and therefor won't search for Catholic priests' sex abuse scandal. Thank you child.Nostrum 02:17 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- You need to read Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines. And you need to start signing your posts on talk pages. - Hephaestos 02:28 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
This article still completely lacks a critical history of catholicism. It's ridiculous to discuss current scandals when the past crimes of the church are only mentioned as "See alsos". --Eloquence 03:30 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
If you believe that the history is lacking then you are welcome to fill it in. If you don't know what to say, you might as well state the obvious, after all, the catholic church doesn't care. If you disagree then you already have lost your NPOV. Nostrum
Many thanks to User:Efghij who made a good first try at incorporating the issues of Nostrum, but done in a fair, balanced and NPOV way. It would be quite odd to have an entry on Catholicism and not mention the recent scandals and crises, but it must be done in a manner that respects the Wikipedia spirit and community. - Voiceofreason
- Nostrum's most recent edits have been NPOV. They are statement of facts. All you and Efghi did was remove information that had links to back it up (on any other article those links would not be needed!). Also, the account Voiceofreason was only created during this edit war. I suspect it was made by someone who was involved whom whished to appear neutral while actually removing valid content. I hope that you and others whom have been removing content can edit the wording, rather than just removing what you don't like and blaming it on poor wording. MB 03:43 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
The "Catholic Clashes" section is barely coherent. It appers to be about the protestant reformation, which has a brief mention and a link to an extensive article in the preceding paragraph. The "Homosexual Abuse in Catholicism" is less POV than the original and has some good information, but it is the kind of detail that should be in the Catholic priests' sex abuse scandal article, not here. - Efghij 03:54 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- Well if you think that you know more about Catholic Clashes than Nostrum, please revise (this doesn't not mean remove). As for the Homosexual Abuse in Catholicism, it is hardly anything in the scope of the entire article. If you wish to summarize (this does not mean delete) than please do. MB 03:58 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I just changed the additions I wrote and I also added comments for the opposite side of the argument. I hope this makes it more NPOV, if you have any more ideas please tell me. Thank you. Nostrum 04:02 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I've added in a section at the bottom about the issue of sexual abuse by clerics. MB's strange comment to Efghij if you think that you know more about Catholic Clashes than Nostrum there probably no-one on wiki who knows less on Catholicism than Nostum. His mis-representation of facts would make even anti-catholic preachers like Ian Paisley cringe. He doesn't know anything about catholicism, doesn't know context, history, what NPOV means, etc. That sort of rubbish belongs in the National Enquirer not an encyclopædia. FearÉIREANN 04:08 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- Am heartened by Nostrum's attempt at NPOV and cooperation, which should be commended. But alas some things grammar won't fix. As for me, I have never edited anything in the Catholicism section before. I am, however, attempting to be a good Wikipedian by using an ID, and not an IP. - Voiceofreason
He is trying but it is still miles away from anything remotely acceptable in any encyclopædia. His facts are wrong. His language is impossible to decipher. He insists on putting the text in the wrong part of the article. He is using a heading that equates homosexuality with paedophilia which is an outrageous and disgraceful slur. He knows a slight bit of facts, has mixed in with a strong personal agenda and expresses it in a way that would be acceptable on any page in wikipedia. He wrote an entire article like that it would go straight to the Votes for Deletion page. Some sysops would delete it straight away because it would look like a joke article. That sort of amendment, in that unreadable version of english, would not be accepted for one minute on any serious article on wiki anywhere. FearÉIREANN 05:12 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I tried to move the section below to here but my system crashed so I lost it and had to shut down the computer and reboot. Thanks for placing it here Oliver. I was about to try to go back through the archives to try to get it again.
The following is text recently removed by Jtdirl that he apparently intended to move here (edit comment: "moved incoherent garbage to talk page"). -- Oliver P. 04:43 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)