Talk:Biblical canon/Archive 2
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Is the word "sect" in the first sentence really NPOV? I'm not a native English speaker but I have the impression it sounds a bit condescending. Is it correct to call the Roman catholic church (just) a sect? -- Jan Hidders 03:13 Aug 16, 2002 (PDT)
- I can see how it could be taken as such, given that it is often used in a derogatory manner by members of one sect or another, but it's really the only word in English that conveys the proper meaning, ie a specifically defined group with some divergent beliefs who are none the less a part of a larger religious tradition. My intent in using it was not to be derogatory, however, if anyone else can come up with a better way to say the same thing, more power to them.JFQ
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"Inspiration by God" is not a condition for being canonical. The OT historical books are simply that: history. They can be accepted as history even by atheists. Eclecticology 11:20 Aug 22, 2002 (PDT)
- to say that bht biblical canon consists of a list of books people include in the bible verges on tautology; I think it is a useless statement. The question is, why are some books included in the canon, and others not? That atheists might accept a particular book as "history" is irrelevant; the canon in question was formed some time ago and it is that process, not how the books are read today, that matters. I put the reference to God back in, with an addition (account of the relationship between people and God, which applies to this "historical" books), because this was indeed the principal criteria for canonization. It is simply false that "The OT historical books are simply that: history." Well, it may be true for Christians (for whom there is a canon of "Old Testament" books), I don't know. But for Jews, the Tanakh doesn't even have a specific section of "historical books" -- most of what the Christian canon places as historical are in a generic section called "writings;" they are not in chronological order (thus, Ruth is placed long after Judges), and to suggest that they were thought of as "simply that: history" for those who authorized the canon is an anachronism (the worst kind of historical reasoning!). In fact, these books were certainly something other than "history" to those who established the canon. One reason I know this is that some of those books refer to other history books of the time (sort of like citations or footnotes); clearly at the time there was a pool of "historical" books and the editors of the canon selected some and excluded others. Why? On what basis? The books chosen for the canon have other functions besides historicity. Some of them have political functions -- for example, the stories in Judges (among other things) is an allegory for the struggle between the tribe of Benjamin and the tribe of Judah for leadership. Surely the kings who claimed legitimacy because of their descent from David would like such a book. But this is not sufficient for inclusion in the Bible -- David is a tragic hero precisely because of his tortured relationship with God. To leave this stuff out is to provide a simplistic, ahistorical, anachronistic reading of the canon. Slrubenstein
- Your comments only muddy the waters. Generally in Wikipedia a first paragraph can be used to define the subject. Definitions are necessarily tautological since they amount to reducing concepts into a single simple word or phrase. Why some particular books are included in the Bible can and should be considered in the general development of the article. There is no doubt that some people view canon as based on inspiration by God, or as a people's relationship to God, and that these beliefs are sometimes used as criteria for cononicity -- but they are not the only criteria, nor are they essential. There's nothing wrong with viewing some book of the Bible as simply history. At least that's a step ahead of the person who rejects the same book because it's in the Bible. If we consider the accounts in Judges as allegory, that puts into doubt the historicity of those contents, -- or is that just a convenient way of papering over Joshua's genocides at Jericho and other Canaanite cities? These were OK because God said to do it. The entire concept of a canon is anachronistic to the Old Testament. The term's use in relationship the the Bible only dates from the church councils of the fourth century which were more concerned with the New Testament. At the time they were significantly more concerned with what they considered to be heretical notions arising from unofficial interpretations of the life of Jesus. Establishing a rule or law (i.e. a canon) about what should go in the Bible was their objective. Having, established the New Testament, it was easy for them to accept the already eight century old work of Jewish scholars about what should go into the Old Testament.
- So, if I may summarize a canon is a law; the more specific Biblical canon is a law governing the contents of the Bible. How or why the material got there is interesting but not essential. A particular sect is the master of its own rules, and is free to include what it wants in its conon. Eclecticology 16:27 Aug 22, 2002 (PDT)
I replaced the linked word "Judaeo-Christian" with links to "Jewish" and "Christian", because it seems inappropriate to authoritatively use a term in a definition sentence which then links to an article that calls into question the very validity of that term (and rightly, I believe). (No username chosen)
Sorry, Eclecticology, but I cannot agree with your statement that some books are there simply because they are history. In fact, it might be worth looking at alternative canons rather than the ones used today. For example, the Samaritan canon, still in use by about 800 Samaritans in Israel and Palestine, consists of just the Pentateuch and Joshua, while it excludes all the other historical books. Their reason for including Joshua, which is verified by many scholars, is that the book is/seems to be an extension of Deuteronomy, which is itself recognized by early Jewish scholars as a later edition to the Bible, dating from the time of King Josiah (an example of this appears in the Babylonian Talmud in the first chapter of Tractate Megillah, where the later origin of Deuteronomy is alluded to--this would place the discussion at c. 300-500 AD). There was also considerable debate about the inclusion of such major works as Ezekiel, Ecclesiastes (which was apparently amended so that it could be included), and certainly Song of Songs. There is also considerable circumstantial evidence that the same debate kept out the Books of Maccabees and Ecclesiasticus (Ben Sirah). Hanukkah, the holiday described in Maccabees does not appear at all in the Mishnah, while Ecclesiasticus is quoted, albeit rarely, in the Talmud, indicating that it had some canonical status.
Furthermore, I don't quite understand your argument that considering Joshua as allegory is "just a convenient way of papering over Joshua's genocides at Jericho and other Canaanite cities." First of all, I think the statement itself is anachronistic in that it imposes contemporary Western values on an ancient Near Eastern culture. Secondly, claiming it is allegorical actually makes the text more difficult to understand today. I can accept that the ancient Israelites acted barbarously from a modern perspective. I have a bigger problem claiming that it is an allegory for some type of behavior expected of us today. Danny
- As someone who too easily gets distracted from improving articles, let me suggest that we maintain focus. I agree by and large with SR's objections to calling certain books "only history". Any such classification is obviously a matter of someone's interpretation, whether the classification is as history, prophecy, poetry, or whatever. But Eclecticology is also right to point out that a canon itself is just a list. Any such such list has as much authority as people ascribe to it. So this article should be concerned with that the various biblical canons are (Jewish, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant), who affirms which canon, when and how the canons became authoritative and perhaps why. Questions of what the Bible actually is, (i.e. historical, prophetic, divinely inspired revelation, stuff and nonesenese, etc.) should be left for the Bible article. I don't think the article as it stands is very far from this at all.
- Also, I think there's a suggestion on the Books of the Bible Talk page that that list be moved here. Would that make sense? And if so, can someone think of a more neutral way to present the Deuterocanon portion than it presently is there? Thanks,
Wesley 20:28 Aug 22, 2002 (PDT)
I would contend that such an article should include the Samaritan canon as well. Though not numerically important today, it is an ancient tradition that might well reflect an earlier version of the contemporary canon: while theologians were debating the merits of this or that book, there were six books that were historically unchallenged (since at least 600 BC) and which are still more or less preserved by a particular community. 152.163.188.194
- I agree it sounds worth mentioning. Want to put it in? Though it probably doesn't belong in this article, I think I read that the Samaritans have a different textual tradition as well, distinct from both the Masoretic Text and the Septuagint. Wesley 07:52 Aug 23, 2002 (PDT)
I agree completely with Wesley that
- this article should be concerned with that the various biblical canons are (Jewish, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant), who affirms which canon, when and how the canons became authoritative and perhaps why.
To state that certain books are in a particular canon because people saw them as divinely inspired does NOT mean that the Bible "is" divinely inspired, it means that "divine inspiration" was one of the criteria for inclusion -- people forming the canon believed this, and that is important.
Perhaps, as Eclectiology says, all definitions are tautological. But to define "Biblical canon" as a list of beooks of the bible that are included because they are in the Bible is ridiculous.
Eclectiology: this article is not about "different interpretations of the Bible," which may include purely historical interpretations. Nor is it about any canon -- all canons have different criteria for inclusion, and each canon has perhaps its own criteria. This is about the Biblical canon. And that means that the criteria for including a book in the canon, by the people who developed the canon and the people who accepted it, is absolutely fundamental. Slrubenstein
- I've added subheadings to the text as is, just to take a step in this direction. I'm sure more fine tuning will be required as a result; no offense is meant, and I plan to come back later to look for inaccuracies, if no one fixes them first. Wesley 10:26 Aug 23, 2002 (PDT)
- I am wondering if it might be useful to include some reference to the extra-biblical canon that some sects have, where they include additional texts that they consider equal to the Bible as part of their complete canon of divine works--I am think of the Mormons with their Book of Mormon, and perhaps also Christian Scientists where their "Science and Health with key to the scriptures." (No username selected)
- I thought of that, but I think it would be easy to stray pretty far afield once we began. Mormons and Christian Scientists, to use your examples, don't add those works to the Bible itself, instead they are additional sacred texts. They should probably be discussed in the Bible article instead, if they aren't already, or in a separate sacred texts sort of article that encompasses more religions. Again, I don't know as I write this whether that or a similar article already exists; don't want to duplicate existing work. Wesley
- I agree that those examples do stretch the scope of this article. I do think there should be some place where a discussion can take place that discusses canons that include the Bible but which also have other works as well. (No username selected). Another interesting expansion of that topic might also include New Age writings that claim to come directly from God or Jesus, such as "A Course in Miracles" or "Conversations with God".
- Turns out there is a sacred text article. Right now it's just a short definition and a list of texts, but it could certainly be expanded to cover the material you're suggesting. The list could be reformatted to show different groupings of texts, such as Mormons affirming both the Bible and Book of Mormon, but not the Upanishads for instance. Does that sound like a good place to you? Wesley
- That would be a good place, but a reorganization of the details in that article would probably be called for to accomplish what we are discussing. Right now it is organized by text--I am think that it ought to be organized by religion. So under the Mormon religion, there would be the Bible and the Book of Mormon listed, and so forth. (no user selected)
I removed this:
- form its correct version of the Bible.
because it is uninformative, and this
- In effect, a canon has the status of a law for the sect's adherents.
because it is wrong -- canon's (at least, the Jewish canon) does not have the status of law; on the contrary, it wuthorizes laws (in other words, a verse in a canonical book may be considered as having unquestionable legal authority). Moreover, not all books in a canon are legal. Jewish tradition distinguished between hagadah (homilies and such) and halacha (laws); one finds examples of both within the Jewish canon. Slrubenstein
- SR, your changes make sense from a Christian perspective as well. "Canon law" in Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism generally means a law or rule that was adopted at an council, especially at an ecumenical council. Good changes to the introduction. Wesley
- Thanks! I also think your sub-headings are a good idea. I think the article is starting to develop in a good direction. When I took my first college level course on the Bible, we started by discussing "the canon" which at first I found strange -- until I realized the point: there was a time when there was no canon, and there was a time therefore when many books circulated and were ascribed different meanings and values. the very idea of a "canon" is an act of imagination -- a claim that there is some idea that is expressed by putting certain books together, but not others. Moeover, once certain books are placed in a canon (or not), our understandings of them change. I hope at some point the article can reflect more on these processes, but your recent work on the article is providing a good solid foundation for what I hope will come later, Slrubenstein
Eclecticology: I looked up canon in the merriam-webster online dictionary, as you suggested, and found this:
- 3 [Middle English, from Late Latin, from Latin, standard] a : an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture b : the authentic works of a writer c : a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works <the canon of great literature>
Definition 3a seems to be the most relevant definition; the text you deleted seems much closer to it than what you replaced it with. Suggest you revert. Wesley
Eclecticology: I continut to insist that a definition of "biblical canon" as "books included in the bible" is silly -- what is the definition of Bible, except canonized books? An entirely circular definition is silly. Besides, as many have pointed out, Wikipedia is not a dictionary. The claim that the biblical canon is "in effect law" is at best meaningless, at worst false; it may be your personal interpretation of canon, and I think you are wrong, but an encyclopedia article is not the place to debate it. The definition I put in is I think accurate and certainly NPOV, please explain how on earth it is NPOV? Remember, the text does not say that the Bible "is" sacred, only that some notion of sacred was crucial for those people who made the canon. Slrubenstein
- First, we are using different dictionaries. What I have is from The New Oxford Dictionary of English in which the word as Old English from Latin from Greek kanôn = rule.
- 1. a general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged.
- a. a Church decree or law
- 2. a collection or list of sacred books accepted as genuine: the formation of the biblical canon [italics are in dictionary]
- a. the works of a particular author or artist that are recognized as genuine
- b. a list of literary works considered to be permanently established as being of the highest quality.
- 1. a general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged.
- From this we can see that the key to the definition lies in the words "rule" and "list" or their synonyms. It could even be viewed as a "law in the form of a list".
- The word that does give me problems is "authoritative". That does not appear in the Oxford definition, which prefers the term "genuine". A reasonable synonym would be "authentic". "Authoritative" can mean "proceeding from an official source and requiring compliance or obedience" but it also carries the additional baggage "able to be trusted as being accurate or true; reliable". I find the ambiguities of "authoritative" unacceptable in these circumstances.
- We also have an ambiguity about how we use the word "law". When I say that the adoption of a canon is a law I do not mean to imply that everything within that canon is a law. I certainly do not consider those parts which I treat as "simply history" to be laws. I am certainly prepared to avoid the ambiguous use of the word law. I had hoped to avoid the problem by using "is in effect law" instead of "is law", but there are alternatives.
- I still maintain that all definitions are necessarily tautologies.
- The issue that "Wikipedia is not a dictionary" is a red herring in this debate. We are still encouraged to define our terms. What you cite would be applicable if the article stated "Biblical canon is [whatever we agree]" followed by nothing else. We have no worries about that.
- I also fail to find why it should be such a problem to view some parts of the Bible as simply history. For me this is the most acceptable part of the Bible; the mystical stuff about it recounting relationships with God only detracts from its credibility. I can accept as fact that Moses came down from the mountain with the Ten Commandments and that they say what they say, but this does not translate into agreeing that he spoke with God when he was on the mountain. Eclecticology 15:25 Aug 23, 2002 (PDT)
On other matters: 1. I do agree that the headings are a clear improvement. 2. I agree that The Book of Mormon and the Upanishads should be considered in other articles. They are canon to their believers but the are not "Biblical" canon . A cross reference to some of these may still be necessary at the bottom of the article, if only to direct people to the right place. Eclecticology 15:25 Aug 23, 2002 (PDT)
I would add that as far as "law" is concerned, there probably is at least one "canon" adopted at a church council that says, "this is the list of books that go in the Bible". Actually more than one church council. This usage seems to be what you're relying on, but it's not the same thing as the biblical canon itself. Not all groups adopted a "biblical canon" by means of a "canon" at a council. Talking about law in the opening sentence probably slants it in the direction of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox POV. Besides the dictionary definition, you may want to look at canon. Wesley